Curse

EmperorTippy · Jul 14, 2005, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

85-90% list price just promotes people to play the market. The money they earn with mass-buying low and selling high comes right out of the pockets of people who 'casually' use the traders. And I can imagine people writing bots to get quotes all day and sell high/buy low automatically, which is something ArenaNet will want to prevent at all costs.

Result: the rich get richer, the poor stay poor, even without bots in the picture. I'd like to see a 50% margin or something that entirely discourages playing the trader market (bartering with players will still continue as it should ofcourse), but will still give a fair return for items you find to encourage people to sell to the trader instead of the merchant.

I can't believe you suggest this again, or even invite people to 'res' that thread when nechronius explained the immense problem with your suggestion already. There are more interests at stake besides your own.

Silmor but this is what we have been talking about and the problems with it. NO ONE SELLS TO A TRADER FOR 50% LIST PRICE. Players will sell to others for more. Say the average player-to-player trade is 75% list price, now I wan't to sell quick so I offer 60% list price and even the casual player realizes that this is a good price so you will sell quickly. The player market is based on the trader market which is flawed as no one sells to the trader they find the higher price and sell to that person.

IF you didn't read the whole thread do so as this is explained along with the causes and effects in depth. If you did read the whole threaad I will come up with better arguments later as I need to sleep.

BTW You should be able to play the market. Look throughout history trader and merchant has been one of the highest paying professions but also one of the highest risk ones. It is the same in guildwars (or was pre update). For the experianced it is easy money just like sigils for the good PvPer or Griffion Runs for the good Farmer or lomars Pass runs for the good runner but for the inexperianced it is low money ulike Farming and Running. I can outperform a PvPer on a good day usally for making gold (corection could) and would beat all but the luckyiest farmer hands down.

Stopping the bots would be easy. Just add a script were if a person attemps to get a quote x number of times in x amount of time with both xes being random within a certain range then a little graphic pops up and you have to enter the number or word it says. There bot defeated.

EmperorTippy · Jul 14, 2005, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcissus

PieXags, then wait for the economy to stabilize. If everyone is having such a problem being unable to buy overpriced weapons/upgrades then their prices will come down as well.

People only sell runes they can't use (the majority of the attribute runes fall under this category). EVERYONE can use a vigor rune which is why hardly anyone ever sold them to the trader.

If the current prices over runes troubles you most. Then stand by the rune vendor and yell at everyone that comes by to sell a rune there. The prices are the way they are because the majority makes it so. Place the blame where it is due.

The blame is due on ANets shoulders by there being no reason to sell to the trader and ever reason to overprice ever drop you get by as much as you can.

The prices won't come down because there are still people willing to pay the high price for the item. (Runners, PvPers, the old rich who want an item for any number of reasons).

The prices are set exactly by the market and the regulation of the market is being kept out of it in this way: I can sell item worth 10K to the Trader for 5K or to Player A for 6K. Now who do I sell to? Player A duh. Now why is player A willing to buy so quick? Because everyone else is selling for 8K. Imagine the person selling for 6K as the whole saler or farmer who just wants to dump the item and the person who sells for 8K as the door to door sales person. They make a bigger profit but you have to account for time spent also. While I could sell my item for 6K in 30 seconds it takes you 10 miniutes to sell your item for 8K. In that time I went back to doing whatever and got more items worth more than 2K making mine the more profitable 10 miniutes overall.

Zeroed · Jul 14, 2005, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

I seriously don't know what drives the NPC these days. The buying prices are essentially RANDOM. Linen selling at 380 (super high price, means high demand right?), oh wait, I can offer you 30 gold for one bolt of linen.

POS.. ridiculous!

What makes him think anyone would sell him linen at 30 gold, even if his stock levels are low? We don't run charities man!

The buying and selling prices completely and blatantly disregard the priciples we have behind capitalism. What system we have in place? Bleigh.. a "because some programmers did it so" system.

Well, the NPC is probably set up to try to minimise the stock that it holds - seeing as holding stock is worthless for the NPC. So it will adjust its selling price and buying price relative to the elasticities of each product.

Basically, its gouging, because people are more willing to trade to the NPC than being bothered to go out and sell it themselves - trader is taking a premium for the convenience of selling to it and it always buying.

The demand side is the same - people are willing to pay more for not having to bother hunting down either a player seller or going and salvaging the items themselves. Again, the trader is taking a premium for convenience.

If you really want to stop this, try to stop everyone from using the trader.

So what its doing is perfectly logical in a capitalist system.

tanwarv · Jul 14, 2005, 01:15 PM // 13:15

I noticed the prcie for silver dye just completely crashed, and I find it hard to believe it's because hordes of people actually SOLD silver dye to the trader at 1 or 2 gp.

The dye trader is selling them at 782 gp... buying at 1 gp. A few minutes ago, it was buying at 80 gp.

I suspect they messed up the selling algorithm, because I image the supply for silver dye has to be very low, since everyone is now selling using the auction channel, since no one would sell at 1gp.

I think buy prices probably reflect some sort of reality, but sell prices are clearly bugged. If anyone thinks this is "working as intended", I'd really like to hear why.

PieXags · Jul 14, 2005, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcissus

PieXags, then wait for the economy to stabilize. If everyone is having such a problem being unable to buy overpriced weapons/upgrades then their prices will come down as well.

People only sell runes they can't use (the majority of the attribute runes fall under this category). EVERYONE can use a vigor rune which is why hardly anyone ever sold them to the trader.

If the current prices over runes troubles you most. Then stand by the rune vendor and yell at everyone that comes by to sell a rune there. The prices are the way they are because the majority makes it so. Place the blame where it is due.

You see thats just it, I don't care about runes, I have the ones I want right now. I just enjoyed farming for gold, it made me work for something, if I wanted the fissure armor I had enjoyed going out for an hour or two just me and the monsters killing them off, getting the loot knowing I was working towards something. Now I go out...and wait a minute, I could be out here for 6 hours and not get a damn thing...

And the economy WON'T stabalize at it's current rate, there are still those who have over a thousand plat, millionares that all became rich BEFORE these updates, and they're the ones doing all the buying/selling amongst eachother, still remaining ever rich. While the poor, remain poor.

I could either sit on my ass and have nothing to do in GW for possible months waiting for the economy to "stabalize" or I could put forth my opinions in the only ways I'm able and get something done about it.

Teufel Eldritch · Jul 14, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

I absolutely loathe selling stuff to real ppl so I don't. I make a fair enough living. I make about a grand for every hour I play. That may be pitiful to some of you but I don't farm at all. I just play the game, pick up the loot that drops & sell it the NPC. My chars are set with all the armor they need, my wifes chars have all the armor they need...sure it's basic Drok but it works & we still have money in the bank.

Money & items fall of of the sky like rain in this game. I don't see how any one Lion's Arch & beyond can not have at least 10k in thier bank.

drizzt134 · Jul 14, 2005, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Yeah, and what happens when we get tired of the tiny 8vs8 guild skirmishes that always turn out with the same cruddy tactics in the same few zones, and have beaten PvE several times and there's nothing more to do?

That's why they put the 15k/fissure armor there, that's why dye is there, that's why they have these end-game perks. So that people have something work for AFTER they do all that.

Problem is...I can't even afford droknar armor, or a good weapon or some mods for any new characters I might make unless I spent hours upon hours at the lost strongbox in hopes of making 3k.

See, it's not about "having the fissure armor" I hardly have enough to even buy normal things now that they've crapped EVERY monsters drops. From charr to flesh golems, it's all been screwed.

I think ppl just try to rush to buy these items so whats the next step? Buy everything in 1 day, and then go out and tell your friends about this for the rest of the 6 months period until the next expansion... lol, that's funny

EmperorTippy · Jul 14, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufel Eldritch

I absolutely loathe selling stuff to real ppl so I don't. I make a fair enough living. I make about a grand for every hour I play. That may be pitiful to some of you but I don't farm at all. I just play the game, pick up the loot that drops & sell it the NPC. My chars are set with all the armor they need, my wifes chars have all the armor they need...sure it's basic Drok but it works & we still have money in the bank.

Money & items fall of of the sky like rain in this game. I don't see how any one Lion's Arch & beyond can not have at least 10k in thier bank.

Yes but the point is with how the trader is now you could sell for to a player than you could to the trader and in less time than it took to make it to the trader. A single WTS: Ecto 6K and its gone. you still made about 2K more than the trader will pay you for that ecto and with no hassle. This is happening with every good trader by a trader (non-merchants).

As for items falling like rain. Have you played since the updates? They nerfed EVERYTHING litteraly every single monster now drops less and cheaper items.

Rulke · Jul 14, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcissus

PieXags, then wait for the economy to stabilize. If everyone is having such a problem being unable to buy overpriced weapons/upgrades then their prices will come down as well.

Yes, this would cause the GW economy to slowly fix itself if it wasn't for the cash injections given in the form of celestial sigils (allowing the very few people with them to buy whatever they like, causing people to keep charging inflated prices, because they can) and the fact that, with the price of armor constant but with the amount of drops given decreasing, and thus the amount of money players can generate decreaseing people will be vastly less willing to sell any good things they get for anything less than what it is now, and attempt to charge as much as they can.

I personally think that the traders should be removed completely, or replaced with crafters for the goods, with set prices, like the scroll "trader" I found outside port sledge (the cost of crafting a scroll there, disregarding the cost of the materials, was for some reason vastly less than the amount the scroll trader was willing to pay for them, but that's beside the point.)

While it is pointless to play the game just to get money, there is a minimum amount anyone needs to stand a chance. 6k. This is for the Droknar's Forge armor, so they can win. For the sake of argument, we will assume that they somehow got all the materials to make it on their own, and also found a good weapon, good set of upgrades for it, a good off-hand item (if applicable) and all the runes they needed.
This will likely require them to have played the game non stop for several years, given the nerfs that have happened everywhere.

You would have thought that they would leave the FoW and UW with excellent drops, to give people a reward for suceeding in the hardes PvE, but no. They have restricted who can enter now, so perhaps they might fix the drops? Please?

PS: I do not farm. I have just purchased Droknar's Forge armor, after playing through every mission and quest I found. I have 16k remaining.

Theos · Jul 14, 2005, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Okok, let's all be rational here..

I'm really stymied myself. But what would we propose as a solution to ANet?

Seriously I failed to see why a fully capitalist, player price controlled market would be very nasty.

Let's say the traders are implementated such that, supposing you are the only person in the entire world..

You can start buying all of a trader's stock for something, until it reaches some maximum defined prices, and runs out of stock. You can then proceed to sell your said item back to the trader, such that the trader takes a cut of 10%-15% and no more, and at the end of the exercise, money changed hands, the pricing cycle of said material went to the top, and went back down again (in the exact same order), and the player is less 10%-15% of his original gold.

How is this a bad system?

Sure, in a real world implementation..

Potentially one ultra rich person can buy up all of one resource, say... Ectos..

But don't forget this is capitalism! People will notice the prices of ectos hiking from 12 plat.. and slowly approaching 20 plat, and decide "Hey! Screw the 15% commission taken by the trader, 20 plat * .85 is an awesome price!" and proceed to dump their stocks back to the trader.

Remember here unlike the previous and current system, there is no overly obsessed "gold sink" system that causes all merchant trades to be rip offs. Tell me, how can someone possibly profit from the system?

Short of some moron who bought that remaining ingot for probably 3 million plat... He can't! In fact if he does it he will consistently lose 15%!

The real trouble is the pricing offered by the traders was stuffed to start with, and price control measures (by the players in general) failed to kick in, if you'd put the price differential between buying-selling smaller and more reflective of real world economies, I'm pretty sure prices will all find their balances too.

Alright, ectos was an extreme example:

Remember "the price of steel"? Let's try steel.

So a player with one million plat can probably afford 3 million steel ingots (provided he has room either) and provided there is that much stock to start with. This is a very naive estimate made assuming their is no increment in pricing throughout.

But in actuality prices would increase/decrease on a curve based on stock levels, and eventually when that last ingot costs 3 million plat, even our bidding entrepreneur will find it hard to cough out that cash to buy it.

What happens then?

Everyone else crashes the NPC with their gold stock. Money changed hands from rich fool to NPC.. and less 15% back to the other stockists.. what's wrong here? Nothing, free market movements!

Of course some greedy nut is going to hold on to that 1 steel ingot of his thinking that prices will jack up somemore, and is sorely mistaken one hour later.

The issue of course to to deduce the rate at which price increments would kick in.. that would probably involve figuring out the true total daily demand for a given supply, etc.. and could be quite tricky.

But hey, I only gave 5 minutes thought to this post, and like some said.. ANet is a huge company and probably has dozens of devs at their disposable. Please don't throw PvEers a solution that even a 12 year old can come up with in 10 minutes, and again and again reward PvPers with more and more enchancements.

The buy low sell high model is such a joke. Eventually the rich shots are just going to exhaust supplies in the player market.. then slowly exhaust the NPCs.. then what?

Nobody in their right mind will sell black dye back to the NPC for 1 gold when it is out of stock.. or *maybe* the pitiful 1-2 plat even. Would the current system work? Most definitely not, from initial observations it looks to be severely broken. Especially when there is no automatic restocking, the NPC should NOT have been introducing gold/materials into the economy to start with.

I seriously fail to see how the NPC is able to determine supply and demand if trades are not even going through him! Heck, make ALL material trade go through him, and it will totally cut out on all that material spam (unless some dork is going to sell at 5% below listed price which is still 10% above the offered price) and it saves us all that hassle immediately.

I agree with this quite a bit, it works much like how everything works in the real world, not counting tax. Usually a specific trader will buy something at certain percentage lower and than what he will sell it for and not like in Guild Wars at +60% lower. Generik's idea seems well founded and should really be looked at, also we could think of tariff and taxes :P J/K

Final note, I agree that the low prices for alot of things is actually an unexpected bug.

Teufel Eldritch · Jul 14, 2005, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

Yes but the point is with how the trader is now you could sell for to a player than you could to the trader and in less time than it took to make it to the trader. A single WTS: Ecto 6K and its gone. you still made about 2K more than the trader will pay you for that ecto and with no hassle. This is happening with every good trader by a trader (non-merchants).

As for items falling like rain. Have you played since the updates? They nerfed EVERYTHING litteraly every single monster now drops less and cheaper items.

No hassle? I disagree. The hassle is a good portion of the reason I don't sell to humans. I like going to the merchant & traders... click click it's gone & I have money. I don't want to sit somewhere for 1/2 hour or more spamming WTS: <insert GW stuff here>. I find it tiresome, dull, & annoying. Dealing with humans while it may get you more money truly, truly sucks.

I would probably...scratch that.... I KNOW I would be much much much richer if I sold to humans, but humans suck & I make enough money off selling to traders/merchants to keep my wife's chars & mine supplied & outfitted.

I don't care if selling it to a human will get me 2k more. Dealing with humans just plain sucks. It is not worth the xtra 2k to deal with them. I would rather just walk up to the ever friendly, never haggle trader/merchant, sell & get back out into the game.

As for selling ecto & whatnot(shards,etc)... I dont sell those. I save them for FoW armor. Saving up for the wifey. She wants FoW tats. =D

Oh & yes I have played after the update.

One final thing in case I havn't mentioned it..... dealing with humans in this game sucks. Have I mentioned that yet?

EmperorTippy · Jul 14, 2005, 01:39 PM // 13:39

My point is that with the new update NO EFFORT IS REQUIRED. Say WTS: Whatever item that has a trader and add 10% to the price the trader will pay for it. 1 post and less than a miniute of time increases the gold you pocket by 10%.

Theos · Jul 14, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

My point is that with the new update NO EFFORT IS REQUIRED. Say WTS: Whatever item that has a trader and add 10% to the price the trader will pay for it. 1 post and less than a miniute of time increases the gold you pocket by 10%.

This is probably a good reason why an Auction House is and has been needed, I dare say it will fix trading between organism and fix the economy to some degree and the idea of trader raqueteering will be now much less profitable.

drizzt134 · Jul 14, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufel Eldritch

I don't want to sit somewhere for 1/2 hour or more spamming WTS: <insert GW stuff here>. I find it tiresome, dull, & annoying. Dealing with humans while it may get you more money truly, truly sucks.

Yes it does truly suck....

Quote:

I would probably...scratch that.... I KNOW I would be much much much richer if I sold to humans, but humans suck & I make enough money off selling to traders/merchants to keep my wife's chars & mine supplied & outfitted. I don't care if selling it to a human will get me 2k more.

Unfortunately, a humanly quality, greed gets in front of this idea... Ppl will go for that extra 2k and will complain about these kind of updates... Because they want that 2k extra all the time, even in their dreams

Quote:

As for selling ecto & whatnot(shards,etc)... I dont sell those.

Smart collector

Quote:

Oh & yes I have played after the update.

Good...

Quote:

One final thing in case I havn't mentioned it..... dealing with humans in this game sucks. Have I mentioned that yet?

Ummmm... I have to say no to this if u are now making it general... Only trading with ppl sucks but playing with most of em rocks...

Zeroed · Jul 14, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Yes, because as long as everyone knows that you buy all materials, you are doing the same as the trader, but taking smaller profits.

EmperorTippy · Jul 14, 2005, 01:54 PM // 13:54

/rant
Gods I have given up on this thread. The people who can't grast a simple concept are awake. It is time to sleep. If this thread has returened to intelligent conversation were I don't have to reiterate the same point 50 million times for you to understand it I may return. Hell I even gave you people numbers in one post about how the update reduced buying power. I have explained how this doesn't hurt anywell extablished players. How the only person really hurt at least for a long time is the new player. I have explained how the PvPers still make money. (and so have others) I have explained how the runners make money. I have explained how this will ruin the economy and make it worse and you still can't get it.

/ends rant
(got like 4 PM's asking me to explain all this)

Strong Fist · Jul 14, 2005, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Silver dye was 600 one day, then the next it was going for 800. I hear black dye is going for 5k, but that may be some people just selling it for that. It's pathetic what people sell some items for also. Few examples.

1) Max Damage Clean Storm Bow-30k (WTF)
2)

Silmor · Jul 14, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

Silmor but this is what we have been talking about and the problems with it. NO ONE SELLS TO A TRADER FOR 50% LIST PRICE.

Hate to burst your bubble, but most people do. Only a handful of people actually bothers participating in the market right now, for most selling to the trader, even for a low price, is way faster than trying to peddle it to another player. The time they save trying to sell their wares is time they can spend with friends having fun in missions and quests, and probably earning more on the side than the 35%-40% extra money they make.

The only people who benefit from 85%/90% sell price are those who mass-buy and mass-sell from the trader. They get enough profit for their time invested, especially since they don't need to bother with other players - their profits are purely limited to how fast they can click, and how much money they can invest in every investment pulse. It takes money to make money in this fashion, which is prime argument for it being a device that makes the rich richer and keeping the poor poor.

You're only arguing from your own perspective, and the game scope is larger than that.

Quote:

BTW You should be able to play the market. Look throughout history trader and merchant has been one of the highest paying professions but also one of the highest risk ones.

Oh, I wasn't aware Guild Wars was a stock trade emulation. I had this funny idea about it being a cooperative roleplaying game that involved using well-organised teams to defeat scripted challenges or other teams.

Real-world economic historical precedence means nothing in an online game, you're grasping at straws to validate your point.

EmperorTippy · Jul 14, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

As I stated before I am tired ATM and will offer better new arguments after I sleep.

I have also stated repeadedly and in many threads that I DON'T NEED GOLD AT ALL I have over 1 million gold and items whos values total over 1 million gold when sold to the trader.

And correction most people used to sell to the traders. After the hit they don't anymore the prices are to drasticaly different. I tried it I walked into random districts and as I had some extra black dyes I said WTS: Black Dye 5K everyone else was selling for 6K and the trader was at 4K. I sold it in under a miniute with only 2 posts. I repeated this test 5 times and every time it was sold in under a miniute.

And 85%/90% would benifit everybody as it would lower the costs of the materials. For the explanation as to why read this whole thread it has been explained repeatedly.

Silmor · Jul 14, 2005, 02:19 PM // 14:19

You think/speculate it will benefit everyone. I propose that it won't, in fact that it will hurt the game immensely. And until ArenaNet implements this terrible suggestion, and the economy really goes to hell, you people will continue to argue that if only they would follow up on this suggestion, everything will be magically fixed!